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Comments (113)

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  mosura
  It failed because there is an ongoing denial that development and operations are two distinct skillsets.If you think 10x devs are unicorns consider how much harder it is to get someone 10x at the intersection of both domains. (Personally I have never met one). You are far better off with people that can work together across the bridge, but that requires actual mutual trust and respect, and we’re not able to do that.
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  jhawk28
  DevOps is dead because it's run by a bunch of ops people who don't know how to do dev and a bunch of dev people who don't know how to do ops. The only tooling problem is that a bunch of companies created "DevOps tools" that then get dictated to use: K8s, terraform, etc. The only way this works is if you build the application to fit within those frameworks. Writing an indexer that is massively parallel and is mainly constrained by CPU/Memory. Instead, you have devs building something that gets thrown over the fence to a devops team that then containerizes it and throw it on K8s. What happens if the application requires lots of IOPS or network bandwidth? K8s doesn't schedule applications that way. "Oh you can customize the scheduler to take that into account". 2 years later, it's still not "customized" because they are ops people who don't know how to code. If you do customize it, the API is going to change in a few months which will break when you upgrade.
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  mjr00
  > most orgs are used to responding to a daytime alert by calling out, “Who just shipped that change?” assuming that whoever merged the diff surely understands how it works and can fix it post-haste. What happens when nobody wrote the code you just deployed, and nobody really understands it?I assume the first time this happens at any given company will be the moment they realize fully autonomous code changes made on production systems by agents is a terrible idea and every change needs a human to take responsibility for and ownership of it, even if the changes were written by an LLM.
• bmitch3020
  DevOps only failed in that so many don't know what it is.DevOps isn't a tool, but there are lots of tools that make it easier to implement.DevOps isn't how management can eliminate half the org and have one person do two roles, specialization is still valuable.DevOps isn't an organization structure, though the wrong org structure can make it fail.DevOps is collaboration. It's getting two distinct roles to better interoperate. The dev team that wants to push features fast. And the ops team that wants stability and uptime.From the management side, if you aren't focused on building teams that work well together, eliminating conflicts, rewarding the team collectively for features and uptime, and giving them the resources to deliver, that's not a DevOps failure, that's a management failure.
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  verdverm
  Yaml is my #1 failure in devops. That so many have resigned themselves to this limit and no longer seek to improve, it's disappointing. Our job is to make things run better and easier, yet so many won't recognize the biggest pains in their own work. Seriously, is text templating an invisibly scoped language really where you think the field has reached maturity?
• mgilroy
  I'd argue that it has failed in some organisations. DevOps for me is embedding the operations with the development team. I still have operations specialist, however, they attend the development team stand ups and help articulate the problems to the developers. They may have separate operations standups and meetings to ensure the operations teams know what they are doing and share best practices. Developers learn about the operations side from those that understand it well and the operations experts learn the limitations and needs of the developers. Occasionally I am fortunate to discover someone's that can understand both areas incredibly well. Either way, this results in increased trust and closer working. You don't care about helping some random person on a ticket from a tream you don't know. You do care about the person you work with daily and understand the problems they have.If you can't account for someone spending x% of their time working with a team but for budgetary purposes belonging to a different team then sack your accountants.DevOps,like agile, when done correctly should help to create teams that understand complete systems or areas of a business work more efficiently than having stand alone teams. The other part of the puzzle is to include the QA team too to ensure that the impact of full system, performance and integration tests are understood by all and that both everyone understands how their changes impact everything else.Having the dev team build code that makes the test and ops teams life easier benefits everyone. Having the ops team provide solutions that support test and dev helps everyone. Having test teams build system that work best with the Dev and ops teams helps everyone.Agile development should enable teams to work at a higher level of performance by granting them the agency to make the right decisions at the right time to deliver a better product by building what is needed in the correct timeline.DevOps and agile fail where companies try to follow waterfall models whilst claiming agile processes. The goal with all these business and operating models is to improve efficiency. When that isn't happening then either you aren't applying the model correctly or you need to change the model.
• antod
  I don't know of any other term in tech that people experience in so many different often contradictory ways that causes people to talk past each other because they're all talking about different things or been places that work so differently.
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  politelemon
  If your developers weren't looking at dashboards before, they won't use a chat interface to interrogate it either. That doesn't really bring it to them any more than their existing capabilities. There's also a worrying underlying assumption being made here that the answers your LLM will give you are accurate and trustworthy.
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  anonymars
  Am I the only one who remembers when DevOps meant "developers are responsible for dealing with the operational part of their software too, so that they don't just throw stuff over the wall for another team to deal with the 3AM pages"?It seems to have become: "we turned ops into coding too, so now the ops team needs to be good at software engineering"
• pjmlp
  It failed because for management and HR, DevOps means ops, for them it is the new buzzword for systems integration, integration engineers, sysadmin,..I have been foolish enough to accept a few project proposals with DevOps role, which in the end meant ops work dealing with VMs, networking and the like.
• 0xbadcafebee
  As a movement, DevOps failed a long time ago. Once the word completely lost its meaning, it was impossible to educate anyone about it. But as a business practice (which is mostly what it is), it's still a viable option that any business can implement. It just takes the right people rising into leadership positions to enact it.
• browningstreet
  I miss good ol’ classical sys admin.
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  zug_zug
  "I think the entire DevOps movement was a mighty, ... it failed."I'm so sick of this nonsense. "Devops" isn't failing, isn't an issue, you can rename it whatever you want, but throughout my career the devops engineers (the ones you don't skimp on) are the best, highest paid professionals at the company.I don't know why I keep reading these completely crazy think-pieces hemming and hawing about a system (having a few engineers who master performance/backups/deployments/oncall/retros) that seems to be wildly successful. It would be nice if more engineers understood under-the-hood, but most companies choose not to exclusively hire at that caliber.
• maerF0x0
  I'm surprised no one has commented that open loops plus closed loops is more or less how velcro works, and that stuff sticks.
• VerifiedReports
  Has this buzzword even been around 20 years?
• BobbyTables2
  Like other fads, it has certainly failed to go out of existence as soon as it should have.
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  skybrian
  I don't understand these graphs. Why do the lines go back in time?
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  blutoot
  My message to the CTO of Honeycomb.io (who apparently wrote this post): please avoid getting philosophical and controversial to gin up curiosity about your AI platform. If you want to highlight the benefits of your platform then do so earnestly and objectively. Please don't mask marketing with an excoriation of a profession that has never been well-defined (or has always been defined to fit into an organization's political landscape for the most part). And you guys (like every other SRE/Ops platform) capitalized on that structural divide and deservedly got rich by selling licenses to these teams. I don't think you can come in now with this holier-than-thou best practice messaging just because platforms like yours have zero moat in this post-CC/Codex world.Hence my vitriol: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46662287.
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  jbreckmckye
  Because the idea you can have all aspects of maintaining a complex piece of technology, maintained by a single cross-skilled team of interchangeable cogs, is utopian and unworkable past any reasonable level of scaleDevOps, shift left, full stack dev, all reminds me of the Futurama episode where Hermes Conrad successfully reorgs the slave camp he's sent to, so that all physical labour is done by a single Australian manSpeaking darker, there is a kind of - well, perhaps not misanthropy, but certainly a not-so-well-meaning dismissiveness, to the "silo breaking" philosophy that looks at complex fields and says "well these should all just be lumped together as one thing, the important stuff is simple, I don't know why you're making all these siloes, man" - assuming that ops specialists, sysadmins, programmers, DBAs, frontend devs, mobile devs, data engineers and testers have just invented the breadth and depth and subtleties of their entire fields, only as a way of keeping everybody else outBut modern systems are complex, they are only getting more so, and the further you buy into the shift-left everyone-is-everything computer-jobs-are-all-the-same philosophy the harder and harder it will get to find employees who can straddle the exhausting range of knowledge to master
• iwontberude
  You made a graph with T being the x axis and then had lines which go backwards in time. I closed the window at this point.
• GiorgioG
  In my experience DevOps has little interest in doing actual DevOps - they just want to run ops. They want to advise (or tell us we’re holding it wrong) but not actually get their hands dirty. On the flip side, devs don’t want to spend a ton of time learning k8s or how to manage servers, cloud services, etc.DevOps is a mess of our own making - embracing K8s created complexity for little gain for nearly all companies.
• bravetraveler
  Scratching neck: come on... just one more vendor, bro
• gardenhedge
  In my company, instead of relying on an ops team.. we rely on a devops team.
• kittikitti
  The vast majority of people who called themselves DevOps were opportunist corporatists looking to get a promotion. It became less Ops as in operations and more Ops as in opponent. These people were haphazardly given the keys to production and I was often bullied by their ability to control it. Management needs to know if my application was running? They asked DevOps who often came back with lies in order to fit their own career objectives.I apologize if my words were sharp because many DevOps engineers were not mean to me. Perhaps I just had bad luck to deal with ignorant gatekeepers to production. You already know if my opinion doesn't apply to you.
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  blutoot
  I can't wait for indie developers to build super-agents that commoditize providers like Honeycomb.io and more importantly clone all their features and offer them up for free as OSS.
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  alphazard
  DevOps only works when the developers are always right. What usually happens is the DevOps team thinks they know best (they are developers too, just not the ones using the tools), and they build a lot of garbage that no one wants to use, often making things more complicated than they were before.Eventually a bureaucrat becomes the manager of the team, and seeks to expand the set of things under DevOps' control. This makes the team a single point of failure for more and more things, while driving more and more developer processes towards mediocrity. Velocity slows, while the DevOps bottlenecks are used as a reason to hire.It's an organizational problem, not a talent or knowledge problem. Allowing a group to hire and grow within an organization, which is not directly accountable for the success of the other parts of the organization that it was intended to support, is creating a cancer, definitionally.