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Comments (134)

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  YZF
  I was looking at a production service we run that was using a few GBs of memory. When I add up all the actual data needed in a naive compact representation I end up with a few MBs. So much waste. That's before thinking of clever ways to compress, or de-duplicate or rearrange that data.Back in the day getting the 16KB expansion pack for my 1KB RAM ZX81 was a big deal. And I also wrote code for PIC microcontrollers that have 768 bytes of program memory [and 25 bytes of RAM]. It's just so easy to not think about efficiency today, you write one line of code in a high level language and you blow away more bytes than these platforms had without doing anything useful.
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  vinkelhake
  I grew up with and absolutely adore The Last Ninja series. I'm not going to comment on the size thing because it's so trite.Instead - here's [0] Ben Daglish (on flute) performing "Wastelands" together with the Norwegian C64/Amiga tribute band FastLoaders. He unfortunately passed away in 2018, just 52 years old.If that tickled your fancy, here's [1] a full concert with them where they perform all songs from The Last Ninja.[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovFgdcapUYI [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTZ1O1LJg-k
• dspillett
  > isometric on the C64 with such an amazing level of detail - simply gorgeousOr a convincing representation of that. A lot of old tricks mean that the games are doing less than you think that they are, and are better understood when you stop thinking “how do they do that” and “how are they convincing my brain that is what they are doing”.Look at how little RAM the original Elite ran in on a BBC Model B, with some swapping of code on disk⁰. 32KB, less the 7.75KB taken by the game's custom screen mode² and a little more reserved for other things¹. I saw breathy reviews at the time and have seen similar nostalgic reviews more recently talking about “8 whole galaxies!” when the game could easily have had far more than that and was at one point going to. They cut it down not for technical reasons but because having more didn't feel usefully more fun and might actually put people off. The galaxies were created by a clever little procedural generator so adding more would have only added a couple of bytes (to hold the seed and maybe other params for the generator) each.Another great example of not quite doing what it looks like the game is doing is the apparently live-drawn 3D view in the game Sentinel on a number of 8-bit platforms.--------[0] There were two blocks of code that were swapped in as you entered or self a space station: one for while docked and one for while in-flight. Also the ship blueprints were not all in memory at the same time, and a different set was loaded as you jumped from one system to another.[1] the CPU call stack (technically up to a quarter K tough the game code only needed less than half of that), scratch-space on page-zero mostly used for game variables but some of which was used by things like the disk controller ROM and sound generator, etc.[2] Normal screen modes close to that consumed 10KB. Screen memory consumption on the BBC Master Enhanced version was doubled as it was tweaked to use double the bit depths (4ppb for the control panel and 2bbp for the exterior, instead of 2bbp and 1ppb respectively).
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  le-mark
  Apparently this person is referring to the available ram on a Commodore 64. The media (data) on disk or tape was much more than that.
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  rigonkulous
  A multi-level generative dungeon-crawler in 10 lines of code:https://bunsen.itch.io/the-snake-temple-by-raxWe lost something in the bloat, folks. Its time to turn around and take another look at the past - or at least re-adjust the rearview mirror to actually look at the road and not ones makeup ..
• DrBazza
  If we're talking about fitting a quart into a pint pot, it would be remiss not to mention Elite fitting into a BBC Model B, 32kb, and the excellent code archaeology of it, and variants by Mark Moxon here: https://www.bbcelite.com/
• lutusp
  > ... 40 kilobytes.How times have changed. My best-selling program "Apple Writer", for the Apple II, ran in eight kilobytes. It was written entirely in 6502 assembly language.
• tiku
  A lot of trial and error. I've built graphical tools with GD in PHP, the difficult part for me what that the coordinates where inverted.. I only knew how to draw lines and pixels, but I got the job done.
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  YasuoTanaka
  It's kind of amazing how much of those old games was actual logic instead of data.Feels like they were closer to programs, while modern games are closer to datasets.
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  Steve16384
  Pretty much every 8-bit computer game of 1987 or earlier (before the 128kB machines became popular) were < 40Kb? The Spectrum and Commodore combined probably had a library in excess of 50,000 games.
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  socalgal2
  Most games back then where small. An C64 only had 64k and most game didn't use all of it. An Atari 800 had max 48k. It wasn't until the 1200 that it went up. Both systems are cartridge based games, many of which were 8k.Honestly though, I don't read much into the sizes. Sure they were small games and had lots of game play for some defintion of game play. I enjoyed them immensely. But it's hard to go back to just a few colors, low-res graphics, often no way to save, etc... for me at least, the modern affordances mean something. Of course I don't need every game to look like Horizon Zero Dawn. A Short Hike was great. It's also 400meg (according to steam)
• eleveriven
  It really puts into perspective how different the constraints were
• forinti
  I was comparing games prices last week and I found that prices from the 80s aren't too different from modern game prices.Elite was £20 in 1984 and that would be £66 today, which is not very different from what a good game for the PS5 costs today.Except that games then were made by one or two people and nowadays games are made by teams with coders, musicians, artists, etc.
• nobodyandproud
  The music and atmosphere was gorgeous. Fond memories of wasted youthI never finished the game, sadly.
• andai
  I shipped a browser game that was 8KB. Okay, plus 30 million lines of Chromium ;)Most of my games are roughly in that range though. I think my MMO was 32KB, and it had a sound effects generator and speech synth in it. (Jsfxr and SAM)I built it in a few days for a game jam.I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to say this stuff is easy if you actually care. Just look at JS13K. Every game there is 13KB or below, and there's some real masterpieces there. (My game was just squares, but I've seen games with whole custom animation systems in them.)Once you learn how, it's pretty easy. But you'll never learn if you don't care.You have to care because there's nothing forcing you. Arguably The Last Ninja would have been a lot more than 40KB if there weren't the hardware limitations of the time.They weren't trying to make it 40KB, they were just trying to make a game.In my case, I enjoy the challenge! (Also I like it when things load instantly :)I think I'll make a PS1 game next. I was inspired by this guy who made a Minecraft clone for Playstation:https://youtu.be/aXoI3CdlNQc?is=sDNnrGbQGJt_qnV6P.S. most Flash games were only a few kilobytes, if you remove the music!
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  tralarpa
  A few years ago, I decompiled a good part of the PC version of Might & Magic 1 for fun. According to Wikipedia, it had been released in 1986, although I don't know whether that refers to the PC version or to the original Apple II version.It is a quite big game: the main executable is 117KB, plus around 50 overlay files of 1.5 KB each for the different dungeons and cities, plus the graphics files. I guess it was even too big for the average PC hardware at that time, or it was a limitation inherited from the original Apple II version: When you want to cast a spell you have to enter the number of the spell from the manual, maybe because there was not enough memory to fit the names of the 94 spells into RAM. Apart from that and the limited graphics and the lack of sound, the internal ruleset is very complete. You have all kind of spells and objects, capabilities, an aging mechanism, shops, etc.. The usual stuff that you also see in today's RPGs.The modern uninstall.exe that came with it (I bought the game on GOG) was 1.3MB big.
• Findecanor
  > “The Last Ninja” was 40 kilobytesI have got 1.1 GB of MP3s with just remixes of the music from the three games, some of which are from a Kickstarter from the composer for the second.
• pronik
  Around the time DirectX came around and first games requiring it appeared, which in my memory coincided with hard drives getting way bigger and first games being delivered on a CD instead of floppies, I've been apalled at how I could see literal BMPs being written to disk during the installation. This was the same time when cracked games were being distributed via BBS at a fraction of the original size with custom installers which decompressed MP3s to their original WAV files. I've asked the same questions then: why WAV, why BMP, why the bloat? With time I've learned the answer: disk space is cheap, memory and CPU cycles are not, if you can afford to save yourself the decoding step, you just do it, your players will love it. You work with constraints you have and when there loosen up, your possibilities expand too.
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  bjt12345
  I never figured out how they did the turtle graphics in this game. The C64 didn't have whole screen bitmaps, you could either use sprites or user defined character sets, neither of which made this straightforward.And the loading screens were also amazing, particularly for tape loading.
• guerrilla
  That's just incredible. People used to be so much better at programming, or at least great programmers had it easier to get funded. Most of what I see today is exceptionally low quality and just getting worse with time.
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  chmod775
  That short video of the game on twitter is 11.5MB, or about 300x larger than the game itself.
• midzer
  My website https://midzer.de/ is themed like "The Last Ninja II" which is the first game I've encountered when I was young.
• oweiler
  That game felt like a graphics demo though. Almost unplayable.
• neurworlds
  40kb and it felt like a full world... I'm burning through tokens to get AI to decide whether to go to the tavern or the market. Something went wrong somewhere
• pronik
  Speaking of the size: my first PC, built by a family friend, had a 80MB disk, split into two partitions. The second 40MB partition had Windows 3.1 and about two Norton Commander columns full of games on it, largest of which were Wolfenstein 3D and Lost Vikings with about 1.4MB each. Truly a different era.
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  xvxvx
  I remember this game, the way it drew itself on each screen, the nice graphics. Growing up with games on Atari, Commodore, Amstrad, and Spectrum, was a lot of fun.By comparison, COD Modern Warfare 3 is 6,000,000 times larger at 240GB. Imagine telling that to someone in 1987.
• frereubu
  So you can read replies etc. without having to be logged in to X: https://xcancel.com/exQUIZitely/status/2040777977521398151
• xg15
  The consequence of "space is cheap" / "If I didn't use that RAM, it would just sit there unused anyway" etc.
• alex_john_m
  Some comments here sound like the ones I hear from car "enthusiasts" praising old engines for being simple to run and easy to fix, then complaining about modern engines being too complicated and how we should return to the "good old days", all that without taking into account the decades of progress since then.Want to prove a point? Give me Skyrim in 64k of ram. Go ahead! I dare you!
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  1970-01-01
  "I still struggle to comprehend, even in the slightest, how programmers back then did what they did - and "First of all, if you're going to LLMize your tweets, do it correctly and run a 2nd pass after you're done editing. Second, read a book. That's how we learned things in 1987.https://archive.org/details/commodore-64-programmers-referen...
• zoenolan
  See also Elite in 22KBhttps://youtu.be/lC4YLMLar5IPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38707095
• choam2426
  We live in an age of abundant memory — until you check RAM prices.
• abrookewood
  God I loved that game. Don't think I ever managed to finish and now I'm tempted to try again!
• cineticdaffodil
  I wonder could you make a fame that small by using svgs?
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  axegon_
  Despite being a mid-late-millennial, I can see how this played out. Even compared to the second family computer my parents got in the late 90's, which was an absolute monster at the time, I do realize how many corners and shortcuts developers had to make to get a game going in a few hundred megabytes, seeing mobile games today easily exceeding 10 times that, and not just now but even 10 years ago when I was working at a company that made mobile games. These days, developers are automatically assuming everyone has what are effectively unlimited resources by 90's standards(granted they haven't transitioned to slop-coding, which makes it substantially worse). Personally, I have a very strange but useful habit: when I find myself with some spare time at work, I spin up a very under-powered VM and start running what is in production and try to find optimizations. One of the data pipelines I have is pretty much insanity in terms of scale and running it took over 48 hours. Last time(a few weeks ago actually), I did the VM thing and started looking for optimizations and I found a few, which were completely counter-intuitive at first and everyone was like "na, that makes no sense". But now the pipeline runs in just over 10 hours. It's insane how much shortcuts you force yourself to find when you put a tight fence around you.
• anthk
  Some Pokémon Crystal ROMs pack a huge amount of gaming in very few MB. Z80-ish ASM, KB's of RAM.The ZMachine games, ditto. A few kb's and an impressive simulated environment will run even under 8bit machines running a virtual machine. Of course z3 machine games will have less features for parsing/obj interaction than z8 machine games, but from a 16 bit machine and up (nothing today, a DOS PC would count) will run z8 games and get pretty complex text adventures. Compare Tristam Island or the first Zork I-III to Spiritwrak, where a subway it's simulated, or Anchorhead.And you can code the games with Inform6 and Inform6lib with maybe a 286 with DOS or 386 and any text editor. Check Inform Beginner's Guide and DM4.pdf And not just DOS, Windows, Linux, BSD, Macs... even Android under Termux. And the games will run either Frotz for Termux or Lectrote, or Fabularium. Under iOS, too.Nethack/lashem weights MB's and has tons of replayability. Written in C. It will even run under a 68020 System 7 based Mac... emulated under 9front with an 720 CPU as the host. It will fly from a 486 CPU and up.Meanwhile, Cataclysm DDA uses C++ and it needs a huge chunk of RAM and a fastly CPU to compile it today. Some high end Pentium4 with 512MB of RAM will run it well enough, but you need to cross compile it.If I had the skills I would rewrite (no AI/LLM's please) CDDA:BN into Golang. The compiling times would plummet down and the CPU usage would be nearly the same. OFC the GC would shine here prunning tons of unused code and data from generated worlds.
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  aaa_aaa
  I played the game. Music was exceptional.
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  christkv
  Oh man the tape loading time. I dreamed about being able to afford a disk drive.
• jml7c5
  Is this even correct? It was a two-sided disk, and each side was 174 KB.
• reedycat
  Masterpieces like these are a perfect demonstration that performance relies not only on fast processors, but on understanding how your data and code compete for resources. Truly admirable. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.
• emsign
  And it was one of the best games ever made. Back in the day equivalent to a AAA tier game of today.
• khaledh
  Constraints breed creativity.
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  mock-possum
  Wow that search/interact mechanic is obnoxious, you can see the player fumbling it every time, despite knowing exactly where the item is they’re trying to collect.
• userbinator
  The same size as Super Mario Bros. (NES, 1985)
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  cubefox
  A game which was actually 40 kilobytes: Super Mario Bros. It had 32 side-scrolling levels.
• krisgenre
  .. and Claude Code for Linux, the CLI binary is 200+ mb :(
• Morpheus_Matrix
  [flagged]
• ychompinator
  [dead]