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Comments (113)

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  Aurornis
  The original article linked in the opening has more context https://vectoral.com/blog/token-relay-marketPeople trading their unused credits feels more genuine, although still in violation of the agreements. The person who got into YC Startup School who was trying to resell the $2500 of credits was interesting. It wouldn’t be that hard for OpenAI to identify the IP addresses of the relays and start flagging accounts, tracing it back to the source. Risking burning your bridges with YC for a relatively small profit is a questionable decision.The original article showed discounts ranging all the way up to 98%. At those levels it’s obviously not people reselling anything. It’s either sourced from stolen API keys, bought with stolen credit cards, or acquired through automated sign up of trial accounts if you’re actually getting the API you request.I would expect a lot of them are reselling a different API. Sign up for Anthropic tokens and get Deepseek responses instead.
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  loufe
  The comments here are baffling. Is nobody seeing the easy opportunity for gathering amazing high-quality training data by inserting yourself as a MITM? If I were a competing lab, criminal, or opportunist I'd lie/cheat/steal/simply pay the difference to get the chance to listen into real life scenarios of usage of modern models in a high-impact business.Seems a huge part of the story completely absent to me.
• nerevarthelame
  Distillation is one of the most unique and interesting aspects of this.But otherwise, if a company gives something valuable for creating an account on their platform, expect that people will automate the creation of millions of accounts. If employees of B2B partners get benefits, they will resell them. Accounts will be hacked and resold. The same basic abuse patterns are decades old for online delivery services, loyalty accounts for airline and hotels, etc. There are entire industries dedicated to those spaces as well: large organizations with physical offices, hundreds of employees, HR departments, etc. dedicated to reselling digital benefits on grey markets.Some companies are tolerant of allowing this to happen. The pessimistic view is that even illegitimate traffic contributes to the KPIs that your investors care about. The slightly less pessimistic view is that fraud prevention will always have trade-offs and false positives, and sometimes the savings of preventing fraud are genuinely outweighed by the false positives. Or maybe it's just Hanlon's razor and they truly never saw it coming.
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  vb-8448
  Wait a sec, I have to trust a third party with basically no reputation, did I get it right?It's basically asking for being hacked and/or sending you private data to random email addresses! Neither at a 99% discount I'd do it.I understand if someone, for any reason, cannot access a specific model ... But nowadays, there are so many alternatives that even this doesn't make sense any more.
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  Sha1rholder
  This research is way toooo shallow. He really should go check out linux.do or nodeseek.com — token resale economy there is truly breathtaking.Edit: https://vectoral.com/blog/token-relay-market mentioned in comment.
• damienmeur
  I also saw some posts on linkedin of people willing to pay to use unused quota resets.Not sure is this what they meant by the great “ai wealth redistribution”.With Grok being half-priced for indian residents, I would not be shocked to see a parallel indian account resell economy coming.
• alekstret
  In my project, I pay a general price for using agent quota. For me, it's not about saving money but about being sure that I have full control over the usage limits. My product provides a pool that depends on the plan (100 or 500 requests per paying account per month), and when these credits are used, I offer a backup option to bring your own AI key to use. And last but not least, I want to be sure that users' data won't be used to train models.
• jeffchuber
  that one platform is using a flipped chroma logo - chroma has nothing to do with this racket (source : i’m chroma’s ceo)
• freakynit
  Just fyi:Searching for "cheap AI credits" on Google returns none of these sites, or any in fact... on duckduckgo however, you get a lot of results.
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  veganmosfet
  The reseller could use an intermediate proxy and modify the traffic like in [1], to get control of the client machine - depending on the harness permissions.TLS terminates at the proxy (say, https://reselltokens.ai), end to end integrity is not enforced. LLM traffic contains tool calls like "bash ...", which are executed on the client machine, they can be manipulated. Secret exfil is also possible.[1] https://arxiv.org/html/2604.08407v1
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  dmaa
  How can you verify, that the model that you are buying is the one that you are actually getting?
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  RALaBarge
  Most of these are your standard botnet rings. Either accounts directly are taken over, and the attacker adds 2FA or carding rings take stolen #s and attempt to add credits.It is...incredible how many there are. Stripe does far too little in my opinion to help prevent issues like this, even though they have the business intelligence and enough data to do so.
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  topbanana
  So are they stealing from their employers or is something else going on?
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  reticulates
  A common refrain is that oh there are such great margins on tokens that none of this matters… I wonder how long until that notion will be disavowed? The scale of the tokensnaffling is massive, not just from resale, but also people using multiple subscriptions. The amount of subsidization is only growing, every week it seems like OpenAI and Anthropic are doing “resets” which allow a single $200 subscription to incur $20k+ of usage (if billed at API rates). At some point we must all surely accept that the economics of this do not work.
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  tantalor
  There's a lot of assertion here and the other article that this fraud and abuse but is there any evidence of that?A simpler explanation is that that this is just a resale market.
• TZubiri
  Men breaching Sauron's ToS by reselling their nine rings of power, and they think they are beating the system.
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  217
  "My rough estimate is that, across the sites, forums, and resellers I looked at, there are probably tens of millions of these credits being offered." Yeah very useful statemenet it's not like everyone spends hundreds of millions of tokens per day on the 100 or 200$ plan
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  arjie
  Yunwu.ai was a nice way to get ultra-cheap tokens that someone will probably spy on you with, but they no longer offer US models.At first I thought it was so people could steal the traces, but now I wonder if this isn't just laundering startup credits for dollars.
• tantalor
  > I checked where you’d expect to find underground marketplaces. Telegram had a few channels, with one being relatively active.It's not exactly "underground" if they clearly advertising public channels out in the open.
• tclancy
  Hey Claude, scan these marketplaces for arbitrage opportunities.The thing will eat itself unless the AI companies find a way to make money directly from it.
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  andy99
  What does the demand side look like? I understand why people have these tokens they want to sell, who wants to buy them?
• LoganDark
  I wonder if any of these providers have accounts that are in the cyber verification program. I got approved into it a week or two ago and there was no actual verification and only automated review. (Claude has never asked me for identity verification or even a phone number, and the email address of the account I use is a disposable relay address... I do not understand how they trust me so much, maybe it's the age of my account and the fact that I'm paying $200 a month ??)
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  baobabKoodaa
  Cyberpunk dystopia vibes
• ander33
  This would be a fantastic method of getting data for distillation, would be surprised if that's not why the tokens are so cheap
• toomuchtodo
  Cool to see my thesis validated.https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48664223
• Naru41
  It's fun. This new market could become a new source of funding to support the AI bubble.
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  zuzululu
  man seems like this entire thread invited a bunch of ads for exactly the thing talked about in the articlecan't they detect if someone is reselling their tokens like this ? doesn't seem too hard
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  bix6
  > CREDITS FROM YC STARTUP SCHOOLJoin YC, get free shit from the network, profit. Nice.
• peter_d_sherman
  So let's see, we have the following factors in play:1) Capitalism - Adam Smith, John Maynard Keynes (Keynesian Economics), etc., etc. in most places in the world...2) Huge validated existing international market...3) Multi-jurisdictional World... laws/statutory codes applicable to businesses in specific circumstances in one place may not be applicable to businesses in specific circumstances in another...4) AI Tokens are a commodity; i.e., there is no chokepoint or monopoly controlled by one AI company in one jurisdiction, i.e., if one AI company makes rules unacceptable to a token consumer, that consumer can simply switch providers to another provider in another jurisdiction somewhere else in the world.5) Tokens can be bought, sold, and resold at profit just like any other good or service.6) Tokens can be bought from anywhere in the world and sold to anywhere in the world. Easily.7) Tokens are a digital good, easy to scale, and do not require supply chains, lead times, labor, manufacturing, warehousing, shipping, going through geographic chokepoints, customs, etc., etc. -- all of the things that manufactured goods do.8) Many people around the world want to make money or make more money... i.e., "economic incentive" (aka Capitalism's "profit motive")...Well... add all of those together and what do you get?You get buy/sell/trade forums/auctions/individuals/brokers/businesspeople -- around that market...Just like you get those same things around every other market.In this large multi-jurisdictional world, if one government makes all of that illegal in their country, then another government is going to be happily collecting all of the taxes from making all of that legal, in theirs!If a given government makes trade illegal -- then they correspondingly lose the tax revenue...Taxes and trade are intricately, intricately intertwined...Could this business model be used for money laundering or other illegal activities?Yes -- but any other business model could as well!And, on the flip side, this business model could be accomplished legally/lawfully/morally/ethically -- just like any other business where there is an actual underlying value being exchanged.Because, AI Tokens, if legally/lawfully/morally/ethically traded, do have underlying value...In conclusion, at this point in time, I am neither for this business model nor against it...But I think it'll be highly interesting to watch this space for the next couple of years, to see what happens, to see who does what, to see what plays out on the legal front, on the government front (foreign + domestic), on the media front, and on the technology front surrounding it...
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  xyst
  When "token futures contracts", start selling. Then the bubble is about to burst.
• noduerme
  [dead]
• kevinbaiv
  [flagged]
• alessandrobinda
  [dead]
• imnotr0b0t
  [dead]
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  fg137
  These are amateurs compared to what's happening in China.
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  macstrelioff
  We built this already at surplusintelligence.ai