HN

Comments (230)

• Menu

  Biologist123
  > People increasingly behave like addicts because addiction is the business model.I sense my internet addiction got a lot worse in recent years. I don’t use social media, but I consume news, blogs and newsletters - and comment threads - voraciously.I think the addiction began as soon as I started to work at a desk behind a computer which had internet access - 20+ years ago. Like putting an alcoholic to work behind a bar and thinking he’d restrain himself.It seems to have worsened in recent years. I’d like out, but the dealers are on every corner.
• Menu

  simonebrunozzi
  Nice article by Stephen Diehl - I really liked his latest on crypto.I noticed that in certain sections there seems to be a heavy use of LLM-assisted writing, such as this one:> The platforms did not invent fear, greed, loneliness, or status anxiety. They industrialised their extraction. Their recommendation systems are vast reinforcement-learning loops that continuously experiment on human weakness. Each objective is a moving composite of high-dimensional signals for attention, retention, and conversion, dispersed across models, metrics, tests, and feedback systems. The subject cannot see the experiment. The operator cannot fully explain it. The regulator can barely comprehend it. The loop knows only that one stimulus keeps a person scrolling while another lets them leave. Calm accuracy loses. Threat, transgression, humiliation, and impossible promises win. The resulting social damage appears nowhere in the objective function. It arrives as an externality.Not sure what you think of it.In my view, his ideas are nice and interesting, and I would rather read less verbose, less "perfect" blog posts, and reduce or remove the use of LLMs.
• Menu

  stillpointlab
  One thing people go through as they age is an elevation of cynicism and general misanthropy. After decades of being disappointed when naive idealism and speculative optimism fail, one can just get down on it all.It is really hard not to succumb to this. It requires active effort and sometimes even a willful ignorance. "turn a blind eye" is the idiom here. Monty Python's "Always look on the bright side of life" kind of thing.Mr Rogers said it: look for the helpers. They may be few, but they are there. Find them and focus on them.
• GlibMonkeyDeath
  The thing is, the "old" internet is still out there. No one is stopping you from writing a futile blog (as I do.) Or using YouTube only for instruction for tasks around the house. Or learn about any topic imaginable. It's just that the bigger ecosystems have followed their incentives to their logical conclusion (hyper-addictive content to maximize earnings from ad sales.) Any new, "for the people" platform is going to face overwhelming pressure at some point to morph into the platforms we have today. It's just too profitable.The only way out is: don't to go to the casino in the first place. We need to tend our own [Voltarian](https://www.openculture.com/2020/09/what-voltaire-meant-when...) gardens.
• speak_plainly
  This also seems to be spilling into the real world. Because of this internet addiction, it’s almost guaranteed that everyone has a relatively expensive computer in their pocket. This has turned into an increasing number of real-world scams, as well as supporting trafficking networks for stealing phones. The scams range from old school pickpocketers to sympathy schemes to full out phone-related accusations – anything to get you to take your phone out of your pocket, potentially unlock it, and have someone swipe it.If it’s unlocked, they may do some further scams from what’s available on the device, but either way, within days, your phone is somewhere in Asia, disassembled, and sold for scrap and parts.
• Menu

  karmakurtisaani
  After reddit prevented browsing old.reddit.com without signing in, I got a lot more active on lemmy. There's some amount of old internet feeling there, you don't get exhausted by the amount of material and it's not overrun by corporations. So far it's been nice.
• Menu

  linster
  Ok article, and has similar points to “You should quit Reddit” (which was a pretty good book).About 2/3 in, the sentences got choppier and shorter, and you could tell some context rot was setting in.
• Menu

  seydor
  In a previous generation, people would detect those technological snake oil sellers , call them out , even chase them. Because they could tell scammers from non-scammers.Now we have already 2-3 generations raised to consider scam practices to be the norm , and even to celebrate behavioral tricks and audience maximizing optimization at any cost (clickbait!).I cannot be convinced this is a normal thing. Over time, things revert to normal, but often in an explosive way.
• CrzyLngPwd
  If you spend your time online, and the online time is spent on the major sirens, then yeah, it's a predatory cesspit.No one forces anyone to use the internet, and certainly one can avoid being snared by the sirens.A little self control goes a long way.
• Menu

  shuwix
  Internet didn't change, it's population did. It's 8 billion potential victims and all bit more sophisticated thieves under one roof.Can't blame Internet. People which were scammed "offline" are now scammed online.
• mglvsky
  A good quote: "Sell people a worldview, and they will advertise it for free because criticism of the product now feels like criticism of the self"
• Menu

  jayturley
  I think the fundamental issue is social communication without any social consequences. In real life if you continually insult and troll people, you will be a pariah. Online, you can find others who admire and support that behavior. And all you need is another anonymous/pseudonymous account to keep doing it if you get blocked.And no, that does not mean that I am calling for identification. It just seems to be a natural consequence of having social interaction without real consequences.
• Menu

  aktenlage
  This so exaggerated. If you think some of the people you know are assholes, that's fine. If you think all of them are assholes, you are either choosing the wrong places to be, or (more likely) the problem is with you.
• riazrizvi
  Nah. It's still the output of multiple ppl merged into one. There's no governing force there. Just human nature, across the world, more captured, more visible than ever before.
• tolerance
  Economic exploitation is just one way to take advantage of people who lack internal contentment. The other forms are cultural and social.Modifying one element in this environment in favor of others won't make things better. You could even argue that less people are being financially scammed online than they are cognitively.These problems are not endemic to the internet. But the internet does cast a broader net and provide a wider variety of ways for people to become afflicted by whatever it is I'm trying to describe.
• Glyptodon
  So I think there is an oversight in this essay, and it's that society becoming predatory is much bigger than the Internet: it is the story of the decay of America, reflected and exacerbated by the internet, as it becomes a anti-democratic huckster society dominated by grifters, theocrats, and snake-oil sellers.Forget the internet, you can't get your home repaired, your car worked on, an appliance purchased, shop for food, or do anything else without wading through a corrupt morass of that mixes woo, subcultures, grift, and subscriptions. Maybe it's the hospital that wants to charge a $25 a day fee to make the hospital room TV grant access to basic cable channels instead of nothing. Maybe it's the elementary school district that mandates every physical interaction between students is called in to the police - like little Jenny shoved Johnny who skinned his knee because he teased her, call the cops, it's policy. Or the way that every customer service interaction is routed through endless AIs because it's cheaper than solving a problem. Or how it seems like nobody will do right by anyone else until lawyers get involved. Cut taxes year after year, while everything decays, we fail the younger generations, and everyone thinks you fake it till you make it because it's all zero sum... It's how America heads straight to banana republic, and it might be too late to turn.
• Menu

  acd
  People should know more about data fusion. How browser javascript fingerprints and unique personal id of the adtech works. Hint it traveres VPNs. The seven has an id of youCheck your id https://amiunique.org/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_fusion
• beloch
  It's almost as if a group of CEO's got together and asked each other, "How can we monetize the time our employees spend off work?". The answer was, apparently, to reduce purchasing-power adjusted pay to the point where hobbies, like the internet, must generate income for people if they want to afford basic necessities. Hence, stagnant wages and the rise of side-hustle economy. Now everybody goes back to work after they get home.If you buy this (wildly speculative and unsupported) theory, then the enshittification of the Internet is only natural. The best way to ruin a hobby is to turn it into a job. The internet was not perfect, but a better place back when people did it as a fun hobby with no expectation of income. Now, everything has to produce financial gain for somebody. Kids still make the same videos of themselves kicking each other in the nuts, but now they have to remind you to like and subscribe in order to fund future tomfoolery.Perhaps what we have is not a problem born of a new technology (i.e. The internet) so much as a societal problem resulting from social regress. We're no longer dividing the pie up equitably enough, so people now feel squeezed and have become utterly obsessed with money. As it turns out, that makes them less fun.
• gizajob
  There’s also a bad side.
• daoboy
  We're evolutionarily programmed to stop everything and focus on anything that elicits fear in our environment. Enormous amounts of money has been invested to design algorithms that capture our attention with fear because they need your attention to sell advertising. Everything's optimized to make you enraged and afraid because it works. They're really good at it too.I know they got my number. I've had to delete every social media site I used to be engaged in (I suppose except this one) for the sake of my mental health.
• Menu

  tamimio
  What ruined the internet is monetized social media, regardless ad driven or direct monetization. Monetization will basically ruin anything meant to be fun, even a simple board game with friends and family, if it stopped being about spending quality time and having fun and now there’s a competition of how much will each make at the end, it won’t be fun, you will see tribalism, manipulation, cheating, and other shenanigans.
• Menu

  a-dub
  the internet is home to plenty of predatory cesspits, but the real stuff is still there too. it's not as convenient or addicting as content that doubles as a funnel for the ad machines, but the real spaces and media that aren't dominated by the advertising industrial complex still exist- just like in other forms of media that preceded the internet.
• zkmon
  The observations appear like disconnected pieces or isolated trends. They are not. You need to step back and look at the full picture. It's just one trend with multiple manifestations. It doesn't require lengthy essays if you look at it's core.It's the business beast riding the tech monster. Its not people. People are simply driven by the beast.I have been to a village recently, hoping to find the foods and fruits I remember from my childhood. They are all gone. Seeds were GM modified, chemicals entered through soil and water, the entire soil layer has lost its nature and ecosystem. The livestock has changed as well. You don't get the same chicken and eggs anymore. Grains, spices, pulses, milk, water everything changed. Just like internet, the enshittification happened everywhere.That's not an isolated trend.
• ChrisMarshallNY
  Sadly, I can't find anything to disagree with, here...:(
• Menu

  operatingthetan
  My feeling is that the current state of the internet is just exposing how humans behave normally, the guardrails have just fallen away. Everyone is immune to shame, the threat of consequences etc. You see this in real life on the streets too.
• anon
  undefined
• thegrim33
  The root cause underlying all of that is the simple fact that the average person just isn't intelligent enough. They fall for the grift, they fall for the advertising, for the manipulation, the propaganda, the echo chambers, the emotion, the hate, they fall for it all. They're either unable to see it or escape it or both.With the internet connecting everyone together, giving you direct, immediate, access to billions of people from the comfort of your own home, of course there's going to be classes of people working to siphon money (or power) from the unintelligent into their own pockets, rather than doing the hard work of actually producing value for their civilization.There's also no real solution to this.Of course, educating people is a solution, somehow getting people to be more intelligent. But that's a slow, long, process, and the more I see, the more I realize just how commonly intelligent people still fall prey to the same things.The only other solution I see is blocking access for the majority for either consuming information from or contributing information to the internet, which is a hard pill to swallow, and which has its own horrible, and mostly unsolvable issues.
• ok123456
  Hell is other people.
• mrkeen
  Good writing includes some examples or statistics.The ratio of grifters to non-grifters could have halved or risen tenfold in the last few decades. How would we know?What percentage of the population "now appears willing to devote every waking hour to fleecing their fellow man as a career choice?"How "many online grifters are themselves marks"?
• Menu

  demritocracy
  I saw a video of a doctor answering a call and the caller started saying some strange hate/concensus-pushing message about Jews hating people who hate Jews in a very angry tone. Neither the doctor nor the commenters suggested it was AI, but it certainly sounded like it. I got a flash of a future where every telemarketer call is either an angry voice ready to convince you of something, or the gender you like trying to woo you.How discouraging would it be (intentionally) if every time an AI had access to your attention, it was trying to make you angry. This would probably cause a lot of people to disengage, a lot to get angry, and a few able to live without being affected by the laser guided anger and manipulation
• OgsyedIE
  Half the comments here, for instance.
• lilerjee
  > Crypto has become the subject of my verbal ire so often because it is the apotheosis of the grift economy.AI is replacing Crypto on the topic in some sense.
• zahlman
  It's interesting to me how complaints about widespread Internet political propaganda and "grifting" so consistently reveal the author's own political biases. It's really hard to write about it in a detached way.(It's strange to see people accuse others of grifting but then continue to engage with the arguments made in that "grift" as though the other party sincerely believed the claims. In my experience, the claims usually probably are made sincerely, and the "grifting" terminology is used because the accuser can't accept that the other worldview exists, or else just as a generic boo word.)
• simonw
  If you don't know the song Welcome to the Internet by Bo Burnham, allow me to introduce you to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1BneeJTDcU(Heck of a karakoe number if you can pull it off.)
• queenkjuul
  "Kind of" feels like the understatement of the century
• anonymousiam
  "Usenet is a cesspool, a dung heap" -- Patrick A. Townson -- published in May 1994 in The UNIX-Hater's Handbook.
• Menu

  sicktriple
  You could replace nearly every instance of "the Internet" in this article with "capitalism" and it would make perfect sense.
• abernard1
  I will provide a contrary opinion.The internet has made available a wide array of facts. And combined with needing to double-check the frequently incorrect hallucinations of AI, this set of facts has a devastating, world-altering effect on the white collar professional class.And cognitive dissonance is the only retreat; the tyranny of reality is too much to bear.
• Scapeghost
  I have IRC logs from 1998Most people were dicks even back thenincluding me :)
• Menu

  aureate
  This reads to as pure AI slop to me, and Pangram agrees (100% AI).To use one of the idioms that give this impression, this is not just knee-jerk whining. It's material to what the article is about. If you're going to raise this topic, be a human and say something constructive. An AI generated ragebait whinge about ragebait is ragebait squared with a heaped serving of hypocrisy on top. This exemplifies everything it complains about.
• dzink
  Part 1: Everything was turned into social User Generated Content to reduce editorial costs. Part 2: Predatory third parties ranging from nation states to SEO agencies started mass filling UGC with anxiety inducing brain rot. Part 3: the brainrot generation is automated by AI and it silences any real people or voices. Part 4: People go outside to touch grass and Part 5: That leaves opportunities for platforms for real people with good culture
• trudler
  tl;dr: The internet is the thing that needs the most attention when educating your kids.I get a lot of value from the internet. I fell for some traps (instagram, facebook with very little value but lots of wasted energy) that I mostly got rid of.But I have many products I am very happy about, that I got to know through other people on the internet.
• Menu

  kayo_20211030
  I've seen this same discussion in a million guises.This particular essay starts with> I’m a kid of the 90s, and I still remember the early internet.... and then contains a lot of predictable stuff about how and why avalon became: tarnished, effete, weak, tawdry, despoiled, no-fun, toxic, predatory, rapacious etc. You can take your pick, it doesn't matter. It's the same argument no matter which adjective you choose.It finally gets to> The question is not whether the internet contains useful things. It does.That's a truism of no value.Take the whole essay, replace "internet" with a country's name and amend some of the details. You've seen it before? You read it every damned day in every form of media. It's used to justify just about anything; the good and the bad. In the end it's a boring, repetitive argument.At the edge, it reduces to: my country used to be great and now it's crap because it's not how it used to be - so, we need to roll everything back despite the number of years that have passed between then and now, and despite any of the positive things that may have come during that time.
• Menu

  varispeed
  I think part of it is due to corrupt government regulating internet as if only Facebooks and Reddits were on the market. It destroyed niche forums and made the place less democratised. Today you cannot just rent a server and start a forum without massive financial backing and therapist on speed dial.
• Menu

  chasd00
  Heh “predatory cesspit”. Ironically, the internet is kind of returning to its roots in this respect.
• anon
  undefined
• Menu

  egonschiele
  I love Stephen's writing, and this is so well written.> I was very wrong. The grift economy is massive. More disturbing still, it is participatory. A large and growing share of the population now appears willing to devote every waking hour to fleecing their fellow man as a career choice.I find myself worrying about this a lot. For what it's worth though, the non-grifters, the people interested in building a community, are still out there. To find them, you need to look for groups that add no financial value – join an art club, volunteer locally. When I spend time with those groups, I'm reminded that not everyone's a grifter in real life.Also, this explorable by Nicky Case is evergreen: https://ncase.me/trust/
• Menu

  tristanj
  Well duh, was this not expected? The Internet userbase has transitioned dramatically over the past several decades.It moved from an outpost for computer nerds in the early 1990s, to a middle-class product in the 2000s, then everybody got access in the 2010s with the spread of the smartphone.The demographics of the internet look nothing like they did when it was created.
• Menu

  RobRivera
  The internetIsFor porn
• metalman
  you forgot to add "slow" to predatory cesspit, or with 4 pages open and 880meg doing who knows what while everything bogs down, the though of closeing the browser and clearing the cache becomes the simpler more pragmatic option, though this dependent on the OS still responding
• micromacrofoot
  Everything is kind of a predatory cesspit now
• CommenterPerson
  Sadly, one of the contributors to this are the "Little" Tech Bros. They have drunk the kool aid at work. A bit libertarian or right wing in nature, they salivate at the latest Full Self Driving (supervised) lie, or AI hype, or crypto when it first came out. Some intricate new feature or language puts them into paroxysms of joy. In their view, any attempt to regulate or draw boundaries around "tech" equates to communism, marxism, and attempts to curtail so called freedom of speech. Don't use it if you don't like it, they say.By Little Tech Bros i mean developers with lots of technical skills, but who haven't been lucky enough to be in the right spot at the right time with an IPO. They keep evangelizing hoping megabucks lightning will hit them the next time. It won't. More likely, a layoff notice. Because Big Tech Bro figured out how to grab all the money from their excess productivity.
• analog8374
  maybe the physical world is the moderator of the dream world (internet). In the absence of the physical world the dream world runs rampant.with no empirical reference, truth becomes a matter of popularity or the loudest argument.with no space, everybody lives next door to a thousand assholes.
• Menu

  spacedcowboy
  This is a little premature - I'm about a month away from a really good launch date, but the sentiment here is too good a match to miss...A long time ago, when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, I set up my first webserver. In those halcyon days you had to email CERN to get your website added to the list of websites in the world; a list people downloaded as the sum total of what the web was and where they could visit.Things have come a long way since then, but maybe not always for the better. The ad-companies have wormed their way into just about everything on the web, and the tech billionaires have funded it because they can make even more money at the general public's expense.I recently got very fed up with Reddit's anti-user policies, and decided 'screw it, there's not that much special here'. As a result, Blewit[1] came into existence: it's an experiment - can an old-style just-for-the-good-of-the-community-it-represents website still function in today's modern world? We'll see...Blewit takes no user information other than a username/password. We're forced to accept cloudflare's country-code so we can be compliant with the Online Safety Act, but we deliberately don't even ask for an email address.We don't track. We don't have ads that are other ways to track. We don't have algorithms that force engagement along the most-outrageous pathway. We don't have analytics to sell you stuff. We don't put tracking pixels in our site, and when you upload an image, we strip it of all the EXIF/Location data so it can't be used to track you by proxy.More bluntly, all the dark patterns are missing. By design. It hearkens back to a simpler time, where people did things simply because they thought it was cool, and others might like it too.So it'll be interesting to see if something like Reddit (I think it's better, but I'm biased) can survive in the far-more-predatory world that we live in, than when I first started using the web. The site is deliberately lean-and-mean, and I think I can give it the on-ramp it needs to become successful if it gets the engagement of sufficient people. Again, I guess we'll see :)Enjoy.1: https://blewit.uk/
• Menu

  bryan_w
  If you go to doomer places on the internet (this thread included), you will see the internet as doomed
• Menu

  analog8374
  A billion hungry discorporate souls, roaming a vast non-space, looking to feed their hunger, looking to eat each other. Some call that hell.
• Menu

  skybrian
  I don't doubt that there are very large communities of grifters, but to say that they are "the Internet" seems a bit much. If you see grifting as the central core of the Internet, maybe that's a problem with your filter bubble. You need to filter that stuff out.
• Menu

  AndrewKemendo
  Now?I’m sorry but I’m sick to death of all this rose tinted glasses crap about the history of the InternetI got on the Internet in 1993 and it is always been a cesspit of bullshit. You could easily find child pornography online in the 90s and there were all kinds of scams constantly being tried
• Menu

  shevy-java
  > I still remember the early internet. It was slow, ugly, unreliable, and full of cranks, a strange world of wheezing dial-up modems, Usenet flamewars, <marquee> tags, and dancing babies.I remember the 1990s and this guy's "description" is massively biased.I remember oldschool browser games in the 1990s - AM Mari (Archmage, from a korean company), or even Java Applets such as Dragonquest or whatever was the name. Or Joe Cartoon - may be a bit after 1990s too. Either way, many such things were not a problem here. I never used a dial-modem, for instance, even in the 1990s had fast flat-rate cable connections that was surprisingly cheap. Still kind of is cheap, for the net-value I get from the world wide web, though I agree it has gone down in quality, for many reasons. One reason is ... Google. And other mega-corporations. These try to destroy the internet. Or rather they want to control more of it.> The scammer once had to find a victim. The platform now finds one, profiles the weakness, optimises the pitch, processes the payment, and recommends the next scam. What was once an aberration has become the norm.Not incorrect indeed. The private companies here abuse the people. The problem is: what to do about that? Google de-facto controls the internet via its evil adChrome empire. All the ad-money revenue goes through this. It's kind of like a giant mafia system established here. Didn't the free market philosophy once claim that monopolies should be avoided? Why did the USA establish these monopolies?> Each feeling arrives with something to buy.Not sure what the guy means. Ublock origin blocks almost all ads. I don't buy anything advertised; I don't even notice it because it does not show up.Not everyone uses the internet in the same way.> People doomscroll until they acquire the anxiety that the next influencer will monetise.Doomscrolling is indeed addictive; I do that on youtube shorts. The shorts are progressively getting worse though and also AI slop spams fake in, which invalidates any time I spend on these too. I usually close the tab after 10 downwards scrolls or so. I am accessing the internet on the desktop though; on smartphones this is probably a more default-y behaviour to swipe.> The system is dopaminergic in the most banal and mechanical sense. It runs on anticipation, uncertainty, and variable reward.Ok, I stopped reading there. The guy thinks that humans are simple systems based on biochemistry. I fail to see how I would fit into that scheme at all. And I understand biochemistry. I'd wish he would have spoken more about who ruined the internet, not what the thing today called the internet is about. We need to isolate and counter those who ruined the internet. Google is a huge factor here but not the only one.
• bakugo
  Fully AI generated article complaining about the state of the internet.The sheer irony of the word "grift" being used 13 times within it...
• SirFatty
  Now, for the last 20 years.
• jdkee
  AI slop.
• teh_infallible
  This post is one long strawman argument.
• Menu

  carabiner
  Everything on the Internet is designed to enrage or sexually arouse you as quickly as possible, including this article.
• juleiie
  I have only one agenda - my own. People hate that I think nowadays.You need to be in some kind of camp, even for something so minor as skincare brand or fanfiction.I think that it was fine until the internet started to influence the real life way too much. You used to be able to log out and gain distance to the bullshit on the web.Now the bullshit has permeated into the mainstream and you need very drastic measures and personality to reject it.You will lose some people for this but there are still some older folks that can talk about anything and will never get offended. Never conform but also don't become a contrarian for the sake of it.The modern life is an art how to stay weird in a world that wants to squash you into some kind of label. How to stay genuineIt starts during simple social interactions in real life. You make a joke about alcohol, now you feel the pressure of the crowd to become 'the funny drunk'. Squash it as soon as possible now you are a teetotaler. Now tell them joke about drugs. Make it all too confusing at all so they lose any idea about what to make of you. Obfuscation. Now you are free in the purest sense. There is no template for you aside from the one you craft or discover for yourself.I even went further and made myself genderless so that these norms cannot easily qualify me into anything really. There is 50% chance if someone calls me a woman or a man.Sometimes I support the feminism. Sometimes I give myself to patriarchy and observe how that feels.Maybe I made it all up and nothing I wrote is genuine.We should strive to be stranger or at least do not treat it as something bad but as a virtue. Of course do not try hard but just explore the weird and see where it takes you.
• Insimwytim
  [dead]
• catlover76
  [dead]
• Menu

  stephbook
  [flagged]
• convolutedsoup
  [flagged]
• grackasthebig
  So ...it's the same social dumpster fire humanity has always been?Cast aside the syntax and semantics of religion for financially engineered beliefs; buy low, sell high or you'll be "left behind!"Small step forward from "believe in my take on Christianity or your soul will be eternally damned!"Mirror neurons fostering same flock building via corps people used to build via scripture.Just more lazy people who want zero responsibility to themselves and everyone else to have responsibility for them.