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Comments (290)

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  andrewla
  Pool together with some friends and buy an H200 or two to run unquantized open source models with abliteration/heretic transformations.You need to be able to use these models for the real world and not for some imaginary world where everything is safe and nice and happy all the time, while at the same time intensely surveilled in the name of CYA and the latest panic about whether speech THAT ISN'T EVEN BETWEEN TWO PARTIES is considered "wrong".I'm a free speech fan that acknowledges there are lots of boundaries of free speech (fraud, perjury, blackmail, defamation), but the one thing that all of the boundaries have in common is that a second party must be involved for them to make any sense at all.Maybe the courts will uphold this, maybe they won't, but don't take the risk!
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  gwd
  > Florida Statute 836.10 makes it a second-degree felony to send, post, or transmit a written or electronic record threatening to kill or injure someone, carry out a mass shooting, or commit an act of terrorism. The communication must be made in a manner in which another person may view it.I think Anthropic did the right thing here; but the sheriff's office are probably demonstrating why she dislikes them. Writing a diary entry to a chatbot is clearly not how this law was intended to be used.EDIT: Actually, on reflection, making this report to the people she was upset about was probably not the right call. If they'd sent it to the FBI, there'd be a much lower chance that someone felt the need to assert their "authority".
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  MisterMunchkin
  How can you charge someone for making a threat when you only read the threat by spying on them? Surely that has to be thrown out in court? They didn’t actually send the threat to anyone, you just obtained it by spying.
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  socializer
  I have some sympathy for Anthropic here because I've seen the headlines after OpenAI failed to report a shooter in a similar situation. So from their perspective, it's damned-if-you-don't, damned-if-you-do.However, people need to get it in their heads that they're not chatting with their secret BFF, they're chatting with Big Tech. Before LLMs, Big Tech had no way to scrutinize the bulk of what was going on within their services, so you could have a secret hate diary in Google Docs. Now, everything you say or write can be automatically screened for red flags on a planetary scale, and probably will be because that's what the regulators and "concerned citizens" will demand. In a couple of years, you'll be biting your tongue a lot more often in private chats.
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  Anoian
  I have told llms all kinds of stories to find out what its answers would be. I always make it sound like it is the truth to make sure the AI answers in a way that it would if somebody actually said this. I also tested internal flagging systems of the ai company I work at with the most evil things a person can ever say to find out if it would flag them.Of course I did not mean any of that stuff, but how can you make sure a human reviewer knows you did not mean it while the llm does not know that you did not mean it.I guess its a miracle I am not in jail yet.Flagging people for anything said to an llm sounds wrong to me because an LLM is not a real person and while some people put in their internal thoughts, others just roleplay and the two are inseparable just from reading it.
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  BorisMelnik
  I expect that anything I type / dictate / post / purchase on the web be it a chat conversation with an AI, a post on social media, a dm, a blog post, a blockchain reference, or an assett in a bucket, will be manually reviewed and forwarded to the authorities. It is their duty to do so, and I am glad that they do. If this woman did harm someone we would be hearing "why didn't Anthropic do something about this."
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  apparent
  I don't understand how she violated this law:> Heller faces a charge of making a written threat of violence under Florida law. Florida Statute 836.10 makes it a second-degree felony to send, post, or transmit a written or electronic record threatening to kill or injure someone, carry out a mass shooting, or commit an act of terrorism.She didn't threaten anything, she wrote down that she was going to do it. A "threat" is more than a mere statement, especially when written in what is described as a "diary".> A Florida woman is facing felony charges after she used Claude as a diary and allegedly wrote that she planned to "shoot up" the Sheriff's office.Obviously I don't want anyone to shoot up anything, but this seems like a weak case legally speaking.
• 1vuio0pswjnm7
  1791138022 | Florida woman used Claude as a diary, then Anthropic reported an entry to police | https://www.techspot.com/news/114091-florida-woman-used-clau... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49956424 | 0 comments1791144575 | Florida woman used Claude as a diary, then Anthropic reported an entry to police | https://www.techspot.com/news/114091-florida-woman-used-clau... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49957340 | 0 comments1791147034 | Florida woman used Claude as a diary, then Anthropic reported an entry to police | https://www.techspot.com/news/114091-florida-woman-used-clau... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49957692 | 0 comments1791149399 | Florida woman used Claude as a diary, then Anthropic reported an entry to police | https://www.techspot.com/news/114091-florida-woman-used-clau... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49958089 | 3 comments1791213096 | Florida woman arrested for allegedly making threats in an AI chat | https://www.theverge.com/ai-artificial-intelligence/1004747/... | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49965895 | 2 comments
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  quadhome
  It is unlawful for any person to send, post, or transmit, or procure the sending, posting, or transmission of, a writing or other record, including an electronic record, in any manner in which it may be viewed by another person, when in such writing or record the person makes a threat to: (a) Kill or to do bodily harm to another person; or (b) Conduct a mass shooting or an act of terrorism.— via https://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Disp...The DA is serious about "in any matter."
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  hypfer
  I guess we probably want our tech to work exactly like this.It should catch normal people becoming unstable so that they can receive help. It is just highly unfortunate that the US legal system works in ways where now this woman's name is public.___Of course, we also want purely private tech, but that needs a certain level of merit and sanity filter.
• notnullorvoid
  I hope this highlights that many (most?) non teach people don't consider or know that their use of AI services is not private.
• iambateman
  Should the public have an expectation of total privacy for their chats? It seems responsible for a chat provider to report things like this.If they were to offer total privacy, is it ok for the public to use chat to get advice on _how_ to commit a crime? Basically everyone agrees that crime-committing advice is inappropriate…but if it is not ok to get advice, that means there must be a portal for law enforcement to step in when that may have happened. Then the question becomes what is the line for when to report? In other words, the issue needs to be adjudicated.But we don’t want OpenAI/Claude to have some $20/hour reviewer making decisions that are this high stakes…we need the courts to do the judicial work because they (1) have a public charter, (2) have meaningful expertise and specialization at interpreting the law and (3) we can hold them accountable.
• jameskilton
  Anthropic commits literal felonies by stealing millions of books and violating Copyright like it doesn't exist: no charge.One unfortunate woman who happened to write the wrong thing in the wrong place is now having her life turned upside-down for perceived thought-crime.To Anthropic, and all employees working there, your company's product and the result of your work is cruelty. You are enabling it and pushing it down everyone's throat. You can never again claim that you are the "ethical" AI company, for no such thing exists.
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  jakzurr
  First I posted to the (likely dup article) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49965895#49966728. Wanted to post here, after reading more.Is this an invasion of their privacy (reporting to police)? Yes, but possibly warranted?Should a social worker have contacted them rather than the police? Probably, if for no other reason than to ask if they were serious about harming someone.Difficult questions, I'm still undecided on whether it's OK to always ignore someone's rants, even if it may be (or they think it may be) a private diary.Actually charging them with a felony seems pretty quick to accuse. (Maybe I missed a hint about how long the investigation took before the felongy charge?)
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  zug_zug
  I guess all the "private model" people are right. Don't want to end up in jail (or even charged with something) for asking a crazy hypothetical question or something.
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  CrzyLngPwd
  Oh man, what a crazy time to be alive.Over in Europe they want to read all ofd our private messages, yet these chatbots, pretending to be our friends, will snitch on us just for our thoughts.It's getting pretty orwellian out there.
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  tintor
  Chatbot transcripts should have the same legal protection as phone calls. Judge's warrant needed to access them.Anthropic (in discussion with Pentagon) claimed mass surveillance is their red line.Yet, they do automated mass surveillance of their users on behalf of police.
• mrb
  Florida statute 836.10 puts the bar at the "sending, posting, or transmission of, a [...] record, in any manner in which it may be viewed by another person"I think the defendant could successfully defend themselves by claiming they did not know (or intend!) the message could be viewed by another person, as they were plainly using it as a private diary.
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  Lio
  For the sake of argument what would happen if she had kept the diary locally and claude code scanned the file?What would happen if it had scanned a file it didn’t have permission to look at and found this threat?I honestly don’t know how I feel about this. On the one hand if you’re using claude as a diary you have no expectation of privacy and she was talking about committing a very serious crime.This still makes me feel queasy though.
• anon
  undefined
• midnightdiesel
  This is practically entrapment. All the AI labs sure don’t shy from plastering annoying disclaimers everywhere saying their tool can make mistakes. Shame on them for not also reminding everyone continually that anything you submit can and will be used against you. Of course they can’t afford to have a Flock-style user revolt.
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  1209-1266
  Where are the people now who claimed that LLM chats are really private and not monitored?Every single lie of yours is exposed in the past few months.
• Havoc
  > making a written threat of violence under Florida law.A diary constitutes making a threat?Oh boy the roleplaying part of LLM world is in for a bad time
• thih9
  In any case this is proof that law and negative PR can influence tech companies, including frontier AI providers.Then again, I wish this worked in a way that would give users more privacy and agency, instead of less.
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  dabinat
  This kind of thing will get worse with humanoid robots because they have cameras and microphones. Will they be programmed to tell on you if you break any kind of rule in front of them because their owners are terrified of being sued?
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  shlant
  this feels very thought-crimey to me, but I think I'd have to actually see that chats to really decide. Like is she making plans/asking for advice? is she just talking about her feelings exactly as if it's a diary?
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  olalonde
  > The communication must be made in a manner in which another person may view it.How does a LLM prompt satisfy this? I guess it'll be an easy win for her.
• jlarocco
  "Assume people can see everything you post on the internet" still applies when using AI. It's not as newsworthy when you put it that way.
• feverzsj
  If only the woman hosted open-weight model in her house.
• anon
  undefined
• charcircuit
  Writing in a diary is protected by the first amendment. Or at least should be.
• 1209-1266
  In Florida. Where DeSantis said "You loot, we shoot":https://www.politico.com/news/2023/08/30/desantis-warns-hurr...
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  jjmarr
  This is why I use ZDR and API access.
• tantalor
  > The communication must be made in a manner in which another person may view it.Seems to fail this test at face value.I mean, somebody you live with may find and read your diary. Is that the same thing?Intent matters here. Did you intend somebody else to view it? Does a reasonable person have expectation of privacy with a chatbot?
• shevy-java
  What a ... nice company.Snitching on the people - good mass surveillance company.On the other hand, people need to learn to not trust these companies. It reminds me of others being surprised when a self-driving car reported a gun in the car. I mean, do people not think? Besides, of course, it's already messed up to want to have a gun. And it is constantly one country that has such issues, more so than many other countries.
• kmfrk
  After people getting pilloried for social media posts from twenty years ago, I really hope (sensible) people will have the wherewithal to think twice about what they hand over to their chatbots.
• hackernud3s
  AI snitches don't get stitches.
• trojanfootball
  So now when everyone has their watch recording conversations, or perv glasses, or Alexas, or Jony Ives new personal AI gadget … recording everything we say and scanning it at scale … is it ok to be a doomer yet?
• mcphage
  Me: Claude, who wrote the song with the lyrics 'I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy'?Claude: Law enforcement has been notified, you are now under arrest.
• hackerbrother
  Do you think they woulda been caught if they used duck.ai?
• Dig1t
  The future is incredibly dark if they manage to ban open source models.
• nullorempty
  Can we already have mind reading devices please. I can't wait for them to see what people really think!
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  Razengan
  We are officially in the era of Thought Crimes.Can the public also immediately get alerted when a cop or politician does some bad shit, though?
• vasco
  I guess it's time to come up with a more plausible explanation about why I asked how to make nuclear weapons almost every month to test LLM refusals.
• AIorNot
  isnt this the plot of the Movie Kimi? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gr2zXuEBL0
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  altmanaltman
  > Heller faces a charge of making a written threat of violence under Florida law. Florida Statute 836.10 makes it a second-degree felony to send, post, or transmit a written or electronic record threatening to kill or injure someone, carry out a mass shooting, or commit an act of terrorism. The communication must be made in a manner in which another person may view it.Thought crimes are real when you're sharing your thoughts with Claude
• frunklooper
  [dead]
• Muromec
  They are good at keeping notes on your criminal conspiracy